Q & A session between Tom Miller, Joe Evans and Craig Burston
Tom -
How did the work come about? The press release alludes to: "a chance meeting and a shared interest in the imposition of systems". Could you elaborate on that?
Joe -
We met at a stag do of a mutual friend. The shared interest was in music in general and when I mentioned I was about to release a CD, Craig offered to help out with a bit of advice. Upon subsequent meetings we started exploring the possibility of collaboration. At that point the glove photos came up as well as Craig's interest in the Fibonacci sequence, both of which formed the bed rock of the project.
Tom-
Was there a process to decide the subject matter of gloves?
Craig –
I was working on the gloves project without a fixed end result for a good six months before I met Joe.
Tom -
Were all the gloves photographed as found? Or is there some intervention there?
Craig-
They were photographed as found with no intervention at all. Also, every glove seen was recorded. I didn't go out of my way to find them but recorded them as and when.
Tom-
Was there a process in defining the order of the images? If so, could you elaborate on that? Was that a joint decision to allow the order of discovery to dictate how the work would turn out? Are there any images that weren’t used or was there a pre-determined number you aimed at photographing?
Joe-
None were missed out but there are significantly more photos now. We let the photos accumulate to a point where we had to make a final commitment to the track length and then sadly the others were left out.
Craig-
We aimed for 45, all were used in the order as found, including one that could only work through 90 degrees as it was the only one photographed landscape. Also, one (or possibly two – it escapes me right now) were taken on a lower resolution setting and again, no intervention = no editing due to some spurious notion of image quality, particularly baring in mind that camera phone photography is my latest take on democratic technologies above and beyond any so called professional predetermined notions of quality. NB: I could talk about this for hours!
Tom-
May I ask about the choice of Typeface? Were any systems used in the decision of typeface used? (that's Monotype Bodoni as far as I can see)
Craig-
The face is indeed Monotype Bodoni. I have a passing interest in the historical context from when it [Bodoni] was originally drawn and purely in terms of its structure and look I really like its weight of strokes, ligatures and so on. Bluntly, I just really like Bodoni and it was a great opportunity to use it at exaggerated scale so people could read the text and the typeface itself – the beauty of its letterforms if you like.
Tom-
Was a system used to define the choice of words and how many words used?
Craig-
Choice of words was inspired by my love of everyday, banal language. The type of bland descriptive words and phrases that become photographic tags, or as the press release (I think) said „witness statements', alluding to the gloves as echoes of former events, whatever they may be. Point sizes were linked directly to the Fibonacci sequence and size of word was determined by importance or emotive resonance e.g. leather, ripped, pink and so on. This was largely an extension of what I've done on my Flickr site which is to see how many hits I receive for largely mundane photographs due to people performing key word searches. I experimented with constraining the numbers of words to the Fibonacci sequence but the language became much too contrived, too self-conscious, so I reverted to the banal language but kept the relationship alive through the use of the Fibonacci sequence for point sizes.
Tom-
How was the layout of the type defined?
Craig-
I rejected any kind of formal Modernist grid system – that was definitely a conscious decision. Compositionally I was happy that the typographic slides had echoes of word clouds as someone commented upon at the private view that was good to hear. The photographs of the gloves were not overly considered at the time of taking them – some were photographed at inopportune moments, amongst commuters or when I was in hurry to get somewhere and so on – and I wanted the typographic slides to at least retain some of the same qualities, the occasional word butted up against the frame, sometimes an uncomfortable counter form or empty space and so on.
Tom-
Were the outcomes expected? If so to what extent?
Craig-
The most liberating aspect of the whole project was when Joe and myself agreed to let the Fibonacci sequence determine the outcome. As stated earlier, Gloves was a work in progress prior to meeting Joe, with two possible end points that I was working towards but I rejected as being too contrived or literal, I was extremely pleased conceptually speaking with the net result of the installation. I'm sure that Joe would mention the CD and DVD release as an outcome with equal value and I couldn't agree more, but from a visual perspective, the installation was a great success for me.
Joe-
Because the music was largely written by system I did find some rather unusual side effects. It's well known that the foundation of music is mathematics as a result it is easy to also believe that all mathematics is musical (a debate for another time perhaps). As regards the Fibonacci sequence the numbers become increasingly unmusical the further into the series one goes. As part of the system was to base the rhythm on the most recent Fibonacci numbers e.g. one might have rhythm base on 13 against 21. This is not the sort of pattern the human mind is used to hearing and therefore it appears to make an approximation to a more familiar rhythm. The effect is that even though the music is played by computer, parts of it sound like a human player that is fumbling their notes because they can't quite keep up. This was quite a discovery, as it hints at a fundamental limit to human ability to identify cross rhythms.
Tom-
Joe, you also mention that because of the sequence you were using to create the music, we're not used to hearing musical translations of that kind and we approximate something more familiar. With the first part – which is piano based – and some of the other parts, I was pretty happy to accept that was a human playing along to it in real time. It sounds fairly natural and flows. I don't know why that is. I played various instruments for many years, I don't know whether that has anything to do with it. I've also been listening to plenty of Reich, Eno and Glass too recently. Maybe that has too.
Joe-
It's partly to do with the high quality of the software, but also the dynamics of the notes were entered manually and are therefore not consistent although there is a lot of repetition. Could it also be those fumbled rhythms?
Tom-
Do you think that to fully appreciate the work, the audience needs to take in the full triptych?
Craig-
Joe would be the best person to answer the question in terms of the need to experience the triptych as a whole, as the music was written to be heard both as three separate pieces and one whole. As for the installation, it was built so as to make it impossible to see all three elements at once, forcing the viewer to respond to each slide with faint memories of previous gloves, colours, words and so on. If it was a purely visual piece then yes, I think you could view the photographic sequence as an experience in itself, but as it is audio-visual then all six elements (sound and image) need to be experienced to fully engage with it.
Joe-
Yes absolutely, While it is possible to get the sound pretty much as it was in the exhibition if you listen to the 5:1 mix on surround, the single screen doesn't do it justice. This led to a certain amount of compromise on the DVD, as we looked at how best to present the material given the single screen limitation.
Tom-
The press release mentions that the colours used and set to the Fibonacci Spiral are the dominant ones in the image. But they seem more like the ones that are dominant in the section of the spiral if you laid it over the image. Is that right? Was there any system you used to define the dominant colour?
Craig-
The process of colour slide creation was not dissimilar to the typographic interpretations that were influenced by Joe's music as the working method was cyclical. In terms of colour picking, it was a transposition of the typographic exercise and allusions to witness statements. A blue latex glove is blue, but within a photograph taken on a mobile phone in particular, there are many tones and shades that you could choose if you were overly concerned about perceived taste, good colour combinations and so on. The colours were chosen as objectively as possible as in some images the most dramatic colours and tones are contained within the background and all of a sudden mundane pavement grey with all of its everyday connotations becomes a beautiful pale blue black, as does the rich red brown tones of a mechanic's oil stained glove tossed into the gutter. The everyday when reduced to colour can become beautiful and untainted by preconceived ideas or prejudice.
Tom-
How might the audio part of the work sound if another composer was asked to follow the same system used to create the music as well as adding their personal response to the images?
Joe-
Well the system is 60-70% of the composition so it would be a hard task for another composer to limit themselves in that way. The music isn't actually an emotional response to the images. The scale used is derived from the Fibonacci series but there is more than one way to do that so that would change what was available harmonically (I limited myself to 7 notes). Assuming that remained the same, the thematic material comes from associating small motifs with colours within the gloves i.e. there is red motif, a green motif etc. These could be completely different depending on the composer's preference. So for example, where the music lifts and in my mind starts to generate a feeling of elation, you will see a prominent red within the glove. Someone else might decide red should be a more dissonant harmony.
V2 and 3 are processed versions of one, so they are pure system.
Tom-
Did you consider the use of any other particular systems to define the outcomes of the work? Were there any particular reasons why you decided not to use them?
Craig-
I can't recall whether we considered any others as the mutual appreciation of the Fibonacci sequence came fairly quickly as the one to see whether we could work together and as initial results were positive we stuck with it.
Joe-
I did consider an alternative method to derive the scale but in the end I was confident that the method I had used would yield everything that was required to make the piece work. During the writing of V1 I tried various manipulations of the motifs but only found something that generated the necessary consistency in the closing bars. So I literally had to go back to the beginning and do it all again. The main problem with writing the music was that there were too many ideas, as a result lots of material was discarded.
Tom-
Did you obtain any reaction from the general public at the gallery installation? If so, were there any indications as to whether any particular elements affected people more than others? Personally, I find the combination of image and sound pretty arresting, but the colours applied to the Fibonacci Spiral with the sound less so.
Craig-
Because I didn't set out to make an emotive statement of any kind, I didn't want to pre-empt any person's emotional response but it was interesting to hear polar opposite reactions from one viewer who told me that they found the experience deeply unsettling to someone else who said they found it incredibly relaxing and meditative even.
Joe-
Sam Gathercole commented that he found the music "Menacing" I took this as a positive reaction.
Tom-
I wouldn't say the sounds are menacing. I'm wondering whether the image is having a stronger affect than the music or the other way round?
Joe-
No his comments were definitely directed at the music and he did refer to the whole thing, not just parts of it. I think we might be straying into the area of how people experience music, which is a very complicated subject that no one really has an answer to.
Tom-
What I would say is that the images seem to take on their own narrative: the gloves that appear carelessly dropped and not really dirty I attach a relatively positive feeling. The surgical gloves immediately bring something completely different. Maybe they're discarded out of urgency, some sort of incident happened. This is what I feel without the music. But when I'm seeing and hearing its when the music changes tack, key and there's bit of drama there I start to look closer at the image trying to figure it out. What happened to its owner? Why was it left behind? Is that something that you felt when you were responding to the images?
Joe-
I think the narrative aspect is very much an illusion, a welcome one I must say, as that was one of the primary goals of the project, to engage the imagination. In terms of how I related the music to the gloves, it was more like parcels going through a sorting office. Looking for distinguishing characteristics and processing them appropriately, I wasn't trying to find any emotional resonance between the music and the images. There are a number of reasons for this, it would be too difficult to do and maintain a consistent form for the entire piece. Also, it's just not necessary, as the music will automatically make connections with the images in the imagination of the listener and of course everyone holds a different musical vocabulary anyway.
Craig-
If I was going to attempt to put a lid on it in terms of emotional responses to the auditory and the visual, I'm with Joe all the way in that neither of us attempted to force a specific emotional response - this was one of the fascinating aspects of passing over control to a predetermined system. I would assume that you're familiar with Barthes' theory of Death of the Author, Tom, in that no matter how hard an artist or creative practitioner in any field tries, the emotional response is inevitably intrinsically hardwired to the viewer or listener's personal subjective perspective garnered through experience or cultural, social or political assumptions. Taking this on board, the gloves are both mundane and emotive, they carry memes, codes and signs yet the way that they are interpreted has little do with my intent as an image maker - if there is any intent at all - and everything to do with individuals' prejudices, experiences and so on. That for me captures the beauty or potential of image or music creation using systems i.e. the artist fully relinquishes control of planned response. Speaking as a graphic design based specialist, where implicit meaning is core to most things, relinquishing this control or purpose was extremely liberating.
